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Post  SEA-106 on Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:57 pm

... is virtually impossible.

Honestly, has anyone thus far had any succes putting in a crawler like system? I've just had a go at it, and found out that I can neither give a unit a build queue, nor give a structure a way to move. So, has anyone else had any more success than I have?

The only way I can think of atm is by using the four special ability slots on the bottom right of the screen, but that will limit the crawler to building 3 unit (maybe structure) types when mobile.

One idea I had was to use an invisible structure that can build structures and research upgrades (which can upgrade the Crawler), although this wouldn't work with vehicles, as they need somewhere to come out. It could possibly become difficult to code, as it would stop the victory condition from being achieved, as there is still a structure in the game, and one that is invisible and untargetable.

Alternately, we could test if we could increase the amount of special-ability button slots up from 4, but I highly doubt this will work. (I know it's concrete in RA3, but I'm not sure about this)

anyway, feel free to discuss.
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Post  SilentMirage on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:04 am

We do not want to discuss about the Crawler anymore, many of us hated it. But in this mod, we call them our good old "MCVs", but the problem is which I'm not sure, will those MCVs can be armed via upgrades, both when deployed and undeployed? I'm no modder so I don't know. Sure, those upgrades you're talking about can work, but only when deployed, remember the TS' GDI Component Tower? They're unarmed on their own, but you can upgrade them to choose the 3 different types of defenses.
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Post  SEA-106 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:12 am

The upgrades of MCVs, and their respective weapons, are not that hard to implement. I Know how to do it, even with the MCV deploying and undeploying.
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Post  SilentMirage on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:16 am

It'll be a good thing if you could tell Naraku to apply as a coder, he'll be glad to could use some additional help. The more the merrier. Wink After all, this project is going to be the biggest of them all, many people said this mod will never finish, but we'll do what we can to change C&C4. AND hopefully Starcraft 2 will not be the modders' obstacle, the new game will be addicting, but we're doing this for Kane!
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Post  SEA-106 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:26 am

I've already said I am willing to help the mod out, but I also work for the paradox mod, as well as do my own C# (XNA) coding, so I won't have unlimited time.

I'm not sure if Naraku saw the part that I said that in though.
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Post  SilentMirage on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:29 am

He's not online or active as much as I am, but don't worry, once he'll notice you, he'll be glad to invite you to join the team. Wink If you have modding friends, do invite them to join the project as well, it'll be a huge advantage if they worked on mods like Tiberian Essence and The Forgotten, they'll be a huge leap if they work on this redux mod.
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Post  Golan2781 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:40 am

Why don't you just have an deployable structure like the MCV that only has vehicle production capabilities when unpacked? This works without a problem and makes the Crawler a more strategic, less tactical unit.


SEA-106 wrote:One idea I had was to use an invisible structure that can build structures and research upgrades (which can upgrade the Crawler), although this wouldn't work with vehicles, as they need somewhere to come out. It could possibly become difficult to code, as it would stop the victory condition from being achieved, as there is still a structure in the game, and one that is invisible and untargetable.
Works like a charm.

SEA-106 wrote:Alternately, we could test if we could increase the amount of special-ability button slots up from 4, but I highly doubt this will work. (I know it's concrete in RA3, but I'm not sure about this)
This isn't realistically possible.
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Post  SEA-106 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:51 am

Golan2781 wrote:Why don't you just have an deployable structure like the MCV that only has vehicle production capabilities when unpacked? This works without a problem and makes the Crawler a more strategic, less tactical unit.

It would work well, but there's a possibility that people will be lazy and just leave their MCV at their starting place, as moving it will prevent them from building units. (If, as plans are atm, other structures can build units, then this will be less of a problem, as the other structures can build while the MCV moves)

If, however, the 3 spare slots are used, then the MCV will still be able to build while moving, but only certain unit types. If we chose which ones carefully, it could also add to the strategy.

Golan2781 wrote:
SEA-106 wrote:One idea I had was to use an invisible structure that can build structures and research upgrades (which can upgrade the Crawler), although this wouldn't work with vehicles, as they need somewhere to come out. It could possibly become difficult to code, as it would stop the victory condition from being achieved, as there is still a structure in the game, and one that is invisible and untargetable.
Works like a charm.

The structure doesn't necessarily need to be invisible. For example, we could set it as a drop pad, which in addition to building and researching, also act as the spawn/respawn point for the MCV. This could be set to being indestructible. (perhaps, though, we could set it to have a very high health, but if destroyed, the player can't respawn?)

It's just another idea I came up with, we would have to decide what is the best in the end.
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Post  Golan2781 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:54 am

SEA-106 wrote:
Golan2781 wrote:Why don't you just have an deployable structure like the MCV that only has vehicle production capabilities when unpacked? This works without a problem and makes the Crawler a more strategic, less tactical unit.

It would work well, but there's a possibility that people will be lazy and just leave their MCV at their starting place, as moving it will prevent them from building units.
If people don't use the strategic possibilities available to them, that's hardly your fault.

SEA-106 wrote:If, however, the 3 spare slots are used, then the MCV will still be able to build while moving, but only certain unit types. If we chose which ones carefully, it could also add to the strategy.
These slots are extremely limited though. You won't be able to have the units built this way use the regular QueueProductionExitUpdate and limiting the number of units allowed to be built this way is nearly impossible, unless limit each to one on this construction type.
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Post  SEA-106 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:29 am

Golan2781 wrote:If people don't use the strategic possiblities available to them, that's hardly your fault.

I think I used the wrong term to describe what I was trying to say. By being unable to build while moving, it's possible that the benefits of building units (which is done constantly in most games) will outweigh, or at least equal, the benefits of moving the MCV.

Golan2781 wrote:These slots are extremely limited though. You won't be able to have the units built this way use the regular QueueProductionExitUpdate and limiting the number of units allowed to be built this way is nearly impossible, unless limit each to one on this construction type.

My idea was to use an OCLSpecialPower to create the unit (the same method the riflemen use to create bunkers), and using to cooldown of the special ability to act as a sort of build time. Obviously, there's problems with the cooldown being after, rather than before, the unit is created. Also, since the 3 units are built separately, the build times may need to be 3 times longer, to prevent units being built faster in mobile form. I'm putting this together in code now, to see if it's feasible.

Alternately, you could use PreparationTime to set the build time before the unit is created, but I believe this makes the unit stand still doing nothing, which kinda wrecks the point of building units in mobile form.

Edit: I got the code working. Now, when you click the button, a pitbull appears, and a 20 sec countdown takes place until you can do it again. I'll have a look at the Disposition, to see if I can make the unit move after being created, but currently it just appears and stands still.

However, I'm used to RA3 code, where there's only 1 special ability. Now that I put in my new special ability, the pack ability disappeared, replaced by the new ability, despite the fact that there's another 3 empty spaces. Smile

Edit again: after reading around on the internet, I've found out the weirdnesses with UnitAbilityButtonTemplates.xml, and have fixed the problem.
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Post  iPcc on Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:43 pm

How about making a 'Transparent' small and invincible MCV as a proxy for the queue system while another 'Graphical' MCV represents the actual Crawler? When the crawler is destroyed, simply cancel all the queue on the 'transparent' MCV and disable the ability to create units (similar to how you can't get units without the necessary buildings.) When the Crawler spawns back, simply reverse the process.

=Crawler=
~~ Choose class (Support, Defense, Offence) : Player choose [Support]
- AI builds a Support type 'Transparent', small and invincible MCV somewhere in the edges of the map. Build time = 0.
- Gives Player the ability to deploy a single* crawler** from the build menu. Build time = Official C&C:4's Crawler deploy time; 10 seconds?
- When Crawler is deployed*** the build menu is activated; and units can be queued from the build menu.

~~ Crawler destroyed:1
- Crawler destroyed animation
- +1 to Counter of Crawler destroyed
- AI Sells the 'Transparent' MCV
- Code loops back to 'Choose Class' if statement

~~ Crawler destroyed:2
- If Counter = 20; Go to end.

Notes:
* Singular unique unit similar to the commando code
** Crawler is a tank unit which can unpack and become stationary
*** Deploy is when the Crawler is sent from space or the underground into the map. It is Different from unpack.

Anyway, on another thought, why aren't you guys not waiting for the new world builder? If EA doesn't release it earlier than Starcraft 2, then I think Blizzard's new Galaxy editor would be much better for this project.
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Post  iPcc on Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:49 pm

SEA-106 wrote:

One idea I had was to use an invisible structure that can build structures and research upgrades (which can upgrade the Crawler), although this wouldn't work with vehicles, as they need somewhere to come out. It could possibly become difficult to code, as it would stop the victory condition from being achieved, as there is still a structure in the game, and one that is invisible and untargetable.

Drop a gigantic atomic bomb at the end of the match to the lowest Victory Points. Disable friendly fire. Notice how every losing unit is destroyed at the end of a match in the official C&C:4?
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Post  Golan2781 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:50 am

iPcc wrote:How about making a 'Transparent' small and invincible MCV as a proxy for the queue system while another 'Graphical' MCV represents the actual Crawler? When the crawler is destroyed, simply cancel all the queue on the 'transparent' MCV and disable the ability to create units (similar to how you can't get units without the necessary buildings.) When the Crawler spawns back, simply reverse the process.
While this works for structures (as noted above), CNC3 only allows for units to actually leave from the building/object they are constructed at.

iPcc wrote:Drop a gigantic atomic bomb at the end of the match to the lowest Victory Points. Disable friendly fire. Notice how every losing unit is destroyed at the end of a match in the official C&C:4?
CNC3 allows to exclude specific objects from the victory condition regardless of their type so no need for any workarounds.
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Post  iPcc on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:59 am

Golan2781 wrote:
iPcc wrote:How about making a 'Transparent' small and invincible MCV as a proxy for the queue system while another 'Graphical' MCV represents the actual Crawler? When the crawler is destroyed, simply cancel all the queue on the 'transparent' MCV and disable the ability to create units (similar to how you can't get units without the necessary buildings.) When the Crawler spawns back, simply reverse the process.
While this works for structures (as noted above), CNC3 only allows for units to actually leave from the building/object they are constructed at.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Anyway, can't the unit simply come out of the transparent MCV and then teleport them to the location of the 'Crawler'. We could also create a transparent chrono-tank that simply does this job.
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Post  Golan2781 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:19 am

iPcc wrote:
Golan2781 wrote:
iPcc wrote:How about making a 'Transparent' small and invincible MCV as a proxy for the queue system while another 'Graphical' MCV represents the actual Crawler? When the crawler is destroyed, simply cancel all the queue on the 'transparent' MCV and disable the ability to create units (similar to how you can't get units without the necessary buildings.) When the Crawler spawns back, simply reverse the process.
While this works for structures (as noted above), CNC3 only allows for units to actually leave from the building/object they are constructed at.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Anyway, can't the unit simply come out of the transparent MCV and then teleport them to the location of the 'Crawler'. We could also create a transparent chrono-tank that simply does this job.
You ever modded CNC3, mate? Shocked
But to answer the question, no you can't. Teleporting to a friendly unit can only be done either by a manual command or a script executed on a named unit, neither of which can be automated in the way necessary for your purpose.
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Post  iPcc on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Golan2781 wrote:
iPcc wrote:
Golan2781 wrote:
iPcc wrote:How about making a 'Transparent' small and invincible MCV as a proxy for the queue system while another 'Graphical' MCV represents the actual Crawler? When the crawler is destroyed, simply cancel all the queue on the 'transparent' MCV and disable the ability to create units (similar to how you can't get units without the necessary buildings.) When the Crawler spawns back, simply reverse the process.
While this works for structures (as noted above), CNC3 only allows for units to actually leave from the building/object they are constructed at.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Anyway, can't the unit simply come out of the transparent MCV and then teleport them to the location of the 'Crawler'. We could also create a transparent chrono-tank that simply does this job.
You ever modded CNC3, mate? Shocked
But to answer the question, no you can't. Teleporting to a friendly unit can only be done either by a manual command or a script executed on a named unit, neither of which can be automated in the way necessary for your purpose.

I'm just throwing ideas out. Razz How about using a tunnel as the 'Crawler'. When the Crawler moves, it is a tank. When it deploys, it is destroyed and a tunnel is built in its place. The 'Transparent' MCV then sends the unit to the other end of the tunnel. Razz Razz Razz
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Post  Golan2781 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:37 am

The only tunnel-like module in CNC3 is the Scrin's wormhole which requires a garrison command to use. Those have pretty much the same restrictions as the teleporting abilities.
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Post  iPcc on Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:05 am

Golan2781 wrote:The only tunnel-like module in CNC3 is the Scrin's wormhole which requires a garrison command to use. Those have pretty much the same restrictions as the teleporting abilities.

That sux; How about we wait until Starcraft 2 Galaxy editor is out?
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Post  Golan2781 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:34 am

I doubt EA would allow that. Using the franchise non-commercially with an EA-engine or free engine (like UE3 basically is today) shouldn't be a problem as it promotes the franchise, but porting it to a direct competitor doesn't seem like something EA would support.
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Post  iPcc on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:27 pm

Golan2781 wrote:I doubt EA would allow that. Using the franchise non-commercially with an EA-engine or free engine (like UE3 basically is today) shouldn't be a problem as it promotes the franchise, but porting it to a direct competitor doesn't seem like something EA would support.

Ahh ok, might as well wait forever for C&C:4's world builder. On another note, does EA hold the unit name's copyright? I'm thinking of creating a psuedo C&C on the Starcraft 2 galaxy editor without infringing EA's rights. I'm thinking of naming Kane as Cain. Very Happy
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Post  SEA-106 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:47 pm

iPcc wrote:I'm just throwing ideas out. Razz How about using a tunnel as the 'Crawler'. When the Crawler moves, it is a tank. When it deploys, it is destroyed and a tunnel is built in its place. The 'Transparent' MCV then sends the unit to the other end of the tunnel. Razz Razz Razz

You don't need a fancy type of thing such as this (even if it were possible, but that's already been covered) Just have the real MCV have unit production (but not structure production, as that it handled by the invis MCV) when it's deployed, and either don't build, or use the 3 spare special ability slots to build, when in mobile form.

meanwhile, all structures will have the real MCV as a prerequisite, so if it's destroyed, the build queue will still be there, but it cannot build anything.

As a side note, I don't think it's possible to have the class system with the state of C&C3. It might be possible with upgrades, but since the invis MCV is persistant, it will be troublesome if you want to change class mid way through.

it might be possible with map scripts though.
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Post  Golan2781 on Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:00 am

You can set newly spawned crawlers to delete all dummy objects ("invis MCV") on spawning. CNC3's damage filtering allows for great freedom here.
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Post  iPcc on Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:34 am

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Post  Naraku on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:42 am

Shocked
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Post  ribot1980 on Tue May 04, 2010 11:47 pm

ok this is my idea...

using the crawler models from CnC4...?

-> works as MCV
  • can build Buildings and produces energy of maybe 2-3 plants (like usual)
  • can also build light vehicles and light infantry
  • heavy vehicles and infantry need a Weaponsfactory, BattleLab, Amory and Airport
  • Amory is needed for building Bunker, Guardtowers and so on...
  • Energy were produced by small generator upgrades on the Buildings or by using a usual Power plant (i donĀ“t like Wink
  • Tier technology levels should be researched on BattleLab
  • if Crawler becomes to next Tier LVL, it produces more Energy for more buildings...
  • all Buildings got diffrences between the Crawler classes
  • Offence -> Better and cheaper Tanks and Vehicles; only Expensive baseunits
  • Defence -> All Infantry buildable types and very cheap; Better Base defences by less Power usage; only MBT and baseunits
  • Support -> All effective type of Aircrafts and Cheap in production,only baseunits and the MBT


What do u think guys?
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